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December 22, 2024

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Revolution

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable. – John F. Kennedy

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71 Responses to “Revolution”
  1. StElias says:

    Hey, Krubozumo Nyankoye,

    You said: ‘I have never visited a single country that was not predominantly populated by good people.”

    You sort of stole my line. Or more accurately, my takeoff from Will Roger’s line, which was: “I have never met a man (he really meant person) I did not like”.

    My observations have been, that I have never visited any part of the world that I found to be to my dislike. I have found positives throughout the world, and not because my mission was to discover that, but I did. Truly, I believe that, so far anyway. Kinda tough at times though. But true.

    Anyway, who the hell is going to be able to guess how this is going to eventually play out in the Middle East, North Africa, Asia Minor?

    Obama is correct, let us hope and pray.

    KS

    PS: You too are so correct: ” hope you see this. Mudflats threads tend to die an early death.” So true for all of these ideological threads. However, Mudflats is much better than most. Posters, fire off a cheap shot, then dissolve into oblivion after delivering their anonymous viewpoint. I really do appreciate this discourse and agree, mostly, with where you are coming from.

    PSS: You say, you are old? Had you pegged as a young, world traveling college student or prof., I’m 71, anybody less is young.

    • Alaska Pi says:

      ( I often come back and read later comments by people . Learn a lot doing that … so maybe the threads are just more populated by quiet commenters as the days go by)

    • Krubozumo Nyankoye says:

      Well you got me on the age thing I am only 62. Spring chicken and all that. There was a time (sigh) on usenet news groups when the Internet was still very much an emergent technology when there were valuable news groups where people from around the world came together to exchange ideas and information. Very few of them survive in the original form or have all that much value any more.

      This is a good blog because the people who frequent it, whether actively or just by lurking seem to have a sense of civility and a willingness to hear differing points of view although all of us share certain points of view.

      Nobody can guess what is going to happen in N. Africa and the Middle East. I hope whatever happens is an improvement for all those who now suffer from extreme economic inequality and repressive government. But power seems to be the most intoxicating of all humanity’s cravings and what we have seen in the past few days is only the beginning.

      Brave new world indeed.

  2. Krubozumo Nyankoye says:

    StElias, apologies for being remiss in responding, I hope you see this. Mudflats threads tend to die an early death. I was sorely distracted yesterday by local events and never had a chance to look for your response.

    From your first paragraph alone I get the impression you and I share a similar disposition towards the events taking place in Egypt. In my experience, I have never visited a single country that was not predominantly populated by good people. One has to wonder if that quality is not something that is almost universally exploited by the tiny minority of people who are not at all good and in fact willing to inflict any kind of hardship, pain, suffering, disaster or mayhem just so long as they can profit by it.

    I will not contradict your example except to say that it is not sound to think that making an example of a single or even multiple transgressors of any social contract will significantly discourage that kind of behavior. After all ruthless greed and self interest are highly rewarded until they begin to have extensive consequences that are blatently disasterous. What moves things in the wrong direction is that petty infractions against the so called social good are ruthlessly punished, literally millions of black guys are imprisoned because of ludicrous drug laws and selective enforcement of a multitude of other laws. This assertion is borne out by the simple comparison of the incarceration rate versus the population.

    I guess my point is this, petty dictators and tyrants are just as bad as icons of despotism. GWB had all the makings of another Stalin except that he was too dull witted to ride the horse he got sat on. So we find ourselves teetering on the brink of a new kind of totalitarianism, team dictators.

    It makes me glad that I am old.

  3. StElias says:

    Although, as I posted before, the end result of what may come out of all this for the people of Egypt may be for the better. Or perhaps, much worse. But you have to give them credit up to this point, they have guts. Like I said, they are good people.

    Right now, Mubarack has disregarded all rational logic and has chosen instead to gut it out and force the obviously overwhelming majority of his countrymen to acquiesce to his demands, by his use of overt and covert force.

    My opinion right now is that Mubarack has chosen the “meathook route”. What do I mean by “meathook”. Listen to the echoes of history, Hosni Mubarack:

    Mussolini and his mistress Clara Petacci were stopped by communists, near the village of Dongo (Lake Como), as they headed for Switzerland to board a plane to escape to Spain.

    They were brought to Mezzegra. They spent their last night in the house of the De Maria family.

    The next day, Mussolini and Petacci were both summarily executed, along with most of the members of their 15-man train, primarily ministers and officials. The shootings took place in a small village.

    On 29 April 1945, the bodies of Mussolini, Petacci, and the other executed Fascists were trucked south to Milan. They were dumped on the ground in the old Piazza Loreto. After being kicked and spat upon, the bodies were hung upside down on meat hooks from the roof of an Esso gas station.

    This was done both to discourage any Fascists from continuing the fight and as an act of revenge for the hanging of many partisans in the same place by Axis authorities. The corpse of this deposed leader was then subject to ridicule and abuse.

  4. Krubozumo Nyankoye says:

    StElias – Thanks for the comeback. I haven’t read, or even seen Meredith, I’ll try to look it up and see if I can form an impression of it from what I find. Thanks also for filling me in on your travels. I have spent varied amounts of time in six of the countries you mention and a few that you haven’t. Angola, Congo (Zaire not Rep. of Congo), CAR, Mali, Burkina Fasso. I first set foot in Africa in 1977 and spent a lot of time there up until about 1995 when the areas of my main interest became too hot for me. Then a few years ago I started going to Angola, Namibia and Botswana. I have never spent less than a month in any of the places I have visited there and often more than 4 or 5 months at a stretch depending on the season. Well that is not quite true I have been to S. Africa a few times just for conferences and the like which only lasted a week or so. That is largely due to the fact that all my travels have been directly or indirectly related to work. That work also has given me a rather different perspective I think in as much as it involved spending most of my time outside large cities and closely associated with a variety of social strata.

    I have always tried to remain as apolitical as possible wherever I was since doing otherwise was not really conducive to having a smoothly running operation, but often the local politics would overcome any desire for neutrality. Economics was an even more taboo subject outside the immediate ramifications of what we worked on. That does not mean I was deaf and dumb just that with the exception of a few experiences I would rather not repeat I tried to stay on the sidelines and just do my job.

    But you would have to be a robot not to have empathy with the “average African”. That I guess is why it strikes me as a little odd that anyone could put forth a figure purporting to describe the “wealth” of Africa as being distributed in any sense at all. At least within the continent.

    I can’t really speak to most of the continent’s countries because I know almost nothing of them but of those I do the economic conditions seem to be almost binary. And I think there is something of a disconnection between the way we use the word wealth and what it might mean anywhere in Africa. If it is defined as net worth, then perhaps some countries would have a tertiary distribution, zero, miniscule and extravagent.

    If I try to put your extensively quoted comment into context (I actually did not realize is was mostly a quote until you pointed it out), I would have to say that I could, and would if there was an incentive to do so, take some exceptions to it. To begin with for example, I found the opening paragraph to be historically too austere in its time context. So I would suggest to you that there is a much deeper and more complex and yes very difficult to access, history that preceeds any recent context which could be applied to any expectation of what might or might not happen in any African country in the process of a disorderly transition of government. I would also suggest that Egypt is sufficiently different from virtually all other African countries as to not be relevent to most of them or vice versa.

    I have a degree of sympathy for how you feel regarding one time visitors to a place. But I also apply the same skepticism to visitors who have been to a place 100 times but for no more than two days at a time. And ultimately, all of us who are not natives, and who not spent most of our lives in all those incredibly diverse places, must really admit that we know virtually nothing at all about them. I share your apparent trepidation about the possible outcomes in Egypt. But I look upon it as a learning experience. Whatever the outcome, and I sincerely hope that our government has the wisdom and foresight not to attempt to guide events in any overt way, the new Egypt will have to learn to live with itself, and we in our turn will have to learn to live with it, whatever it might be.

  5. StElias says:

    Having spent about five months total around and inside of Africa it makes me sick to hear about the anarchy in Egypt today. Those are good people. I realize they believe they should be doing better, and rightly they should, however, the odds are, what they wish for will not materialize and things may well get worse. Much worse.

    Here are some of Martin Meredith’s assessments, which accurately reflect my observations on the continent:

    “Many dictatorships fell in Africa in the early 1990s, as many dictators survived, albeit under different circumstances. A new breed of dictator emerged, adept at maintaining a façade of democracy sufficient for them to be able to obtain foreign aid. Even when regime changes occurred, new governments soon reverted to the same systems of patronage and partrimonialism run by their predecessors; some quickly lapsed into the same autocratic means of rule. In place of Big Man rule came Big Man democracy, with little difference between the two.

    Out of fifty African countries in 1990, almost all were one-party states or military dictatorships. Opposition parties were illegal in thirty-two states. Elections, when held, served mainly to confirm the incumbent president and his party in power. In twenty-nine countries, over the course of 150 elections held between 1960 and 1989, opposition parties were never allowed to win a single seat.

    In reality, fifty years after the beginning of the independence era, Africa’s prospects are bleaker than ever before. Already the world’s poorest region, it is falling further and further behind all other regions of the world. Its average per capita national income is one-third lower than the world’s next poorest region, South Asia.

    The sum of Africa’s misfortunes-its wars, its despotisms, its corruption, its droughts, its everyday violence-presents a crisis of such magnitude that it goes beyond the reach of foreseeable solutions. At the core of the crisis is the failure of African leaders to provide effective government. Few countries have experienced wise or competent leadership.
    South Africa, in the post-apartheid era, has emerged as a well managed democratic state, with strong institutions and a system of checks and balances firmly entrenched in a modern constitution. Botswana stands out as a unique example of an enduring multi-party democracy with a record of sound economic management that has used its diamond riches for national advancement and maintained an administration free of corruption.

    But for the most part, Africa has suffered grievously at the hands of its “Big Men” and its ruling elites, Their preoccupation, above all, has been to hold power for the purpose of self-enrichment. The patrimonial systems they have used to sustain themselves in power have drained away a huge proportion of state resources. They have commandeered further riches by acting as “gatekeepers” for foreign companies. Much of the wealth they have acquired has been squandered on luxury living or stashed away in foreign bank accounts and foreign investments. Forty per cent of Africa’s private wealth is held offshore.

    Their scramble for wealth has spawned a culture of corruption permeating every level of society.”

    • Krubozumo Nyankoye says:

      St. Elias –

      Well chosen name, one of my favorite mountains.

      You refer at the outset to having spent about five months total around and inside Africa. I have to agree that that is unusual and a qualification. Very few US citizens can say as much, or much more, maybe some peace corps vets. Then you happen to run into someone like me who has spent years in Africa, in several different countries.

      I am not inclined to dissect your analysis per se. Some of it is quite good, some of it is a bit questionable shall we say. For example, the 40% of Africa’s wealth that is stowed away off shore, how exactly does that compare to the roughly 80% of US wealth that is probably mostly stored off shore?

      And let’s get specific. Africa is a very big place and radically different from place to place, so offer up some countries in which you spent time. We may not overlap at all, but at least knowing some general backgrounds could serve as a foundation for discussion. I have never been to any of the countries on the shore of the Mediterrainian. But I have spent years, months, weeks and days in many countries South and East of Senegal.

      • StElias says:

        Thanks, I chose that mountain because I was born in its shadow. Well, sort of anyway.

        Most interesting that you have spent so much time in Africa. First off, let me note that I get disgusted by those who visit a place once then become instant experts. We see that first hand so often here in my home state. So, normally when I discuss Africa, I usually utter a qualifier and disclaimer with words to that effect. I didn’t do that in this case—Reason?

        I’m certain you noticed, but 90% of my text was a quote. The quotes were out of “The Fate of Africa” by Martin Meredith. Good read if you are at all interested in, well, the fate of Africa. Reason I happened onto the book was because, in 2008, I took in a short lecture series delivered by a third generation Zimbabwean rancher and businessperson. To my knowledge, he still lives there. He suggested the book to be the most knowledgeable review pertinent to African politics, that he has run across. Based on my own limited relevant studies, travels and observations, etc. Meredith makes a lot of sense.

        You mentioned our U.S. trend toward multinational corporations and a great deal of our wealth being dispersed overseas. One of my pet peeves. How that compares to the African dilemma, is a matter of conjecture I suppose. Anyway, the 40% figure is Meredith’s and he attributes it to the World Bank’s: “Can Africa Claim the 21st Century?” and “Economic Causes of Civil Conflict and their Implications for Policy” Washington D.C. 2000.

        I have been to Africa three times. Started in 2004. Some countries multiple stops, only for a day at some, others for a week or so—Morocco, Senegal, Guinea, The Gambia, Sierra Leone, Cote d’Ivoire,Togo, Namibia, South Africa, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Egypt and Tunisia. Also, Jordan, Israel, Cyprus, Greece, Turkey, Oman and Dubai. Close–Seychelles, Reunion Island, and Mauritius.

  6. jojobo1 says:

    When your right your right Beth.

  7. beth says:

    Looking at Iraq, Afghanistan, and on down the road…

    One more thing, one vitally important thing, to remember: “democracy” and “participatory government” as enjoyed and practiced by citizens in *our* nation, will never be precisely the same for citizens in any *other* nation — in many instances, it won’t even come close to even looking the same, let alone, being the same.

    The circumstances and conditions from which our form of governance sprang are not the same as those of any other nation…either current or past. Our society, culture, and history informed the creation of our particular form of governance; a form of governance unique to us and our circumstances. No other nation, no other peoples, can -or will- have an identical form of governance to ours; *their* nation’s particular society, culture, and history precludes that from ever happening.

    I think many Americans forget that unshakeable fact; I think many Americans believe that unless another country’s people enjoy the exact same form of governance as we do, those peoples have neither “democracy” nor a “participatory government.” From my perspective, it should be obvious to anyone with half a brain that this notion of what is (and what is not) “democracy” and/or “participatory governance”, is totally off the mark and is doomed to failure.

    Look at Iraq and AFG — each have their own totally unique history, culture, and society BUT, instead of working *with* those immutable parameters in helping to create a viable government for each of the peoples, ‘we’ decided it would be best to have *our* form of governance for them. Guess what? It ain’t working. And it never will.

    No matter what the outcome of the populist uprisings in Egypt (and other nations) ends up being, I hope we Americans are smart enough to recognize the specific conditions and circumstances unique to *their* peoples and nation, and that we do not judge *their* ultimate solutions/resolutions as somehow ‘inadequate’ or ‘unworthy’ because those efforts are not a clone of *our* democracy and *our* form of participatory government. [OK, heartfelt rant over.] beth.

    • Krubozumo Nyankoye says:

      Beth,

      You are of course quite correct. Frankly, in my opinion our form of government is not as functional and flexible as that enjoyed by say the British. So it is obviously true that no other nation will adopt our model given just recent experience let alone long history.

      The myth that so many in the US cling to about our being some kind of beacon of democracy is rather shocking to anyone aware of the rest of the world and indeed also aware of what is happening inside the US. We are not a beacon to democracy and freedom, we are the personification of the iron fist of absolute capitalism.

  8. beth says:

    What many Americans fail to realize is: The US supported Mubarak and his country (in word and financiall­y) all these years and **IN TURN** Mubarak supported the US.

    Of *ALL* the nations in the area, Egypt, under the leadership­/dictators­hip of Mubarak (and before him, Sadat) is –possibly with Jordan– the only one that has consistent­ly maintained a steadiness towards the US and the USs efforts to keep the explosive nature of the political situation(­s) in the area from blowing us all to Kingdom Come.

    It’s very easy for us to comment on what should and should not happen in Egypt, and what this administra­tion should and should not say or do in regards *both* Mubarak and the populist uprising, BUT we would do well to keep in mind that it’s an extremely delicate situation *for* the US; it’s a virtual powder keg that is going to take all the expertise, diplomacy, tact, and patience POTUS and his team can muster. beth.

    • OMG says:

      well put

    • bubbles says:

      yes indeed. that is why after much thought i have decided that the number 1 news station in America should be dispatched immediately to Egypt via Saudi Arabia (Saudi Arabia so that their crack journalists can at long last meet one of their most important investor/owners. Mr. Tarik al Talibani)
      these eminent newscasters will then set out to cover this story like they do all other stories.
      i suggest that Mr. Bully O’Reilly along with Mrs Suckface Palin and Mr. Glen aka Murder Beck should be joined by none other than our illustrious not to mention colorful Senators Boehner and Bachmann.
      there. that should do it.

      KA BOOOOM!

      • jojobo1 says:

        Sounds good me bubbles but they would never go beck and boner would cry and wail as would the rest..AS I watch what is unfoulding I can almost immagine what the folks at fox are saying like palin said nuke um

  9. Ice Gal says:

    That video looks like the amerika the republicans are planning. Won’t be any prettier here.
    Here is hoping the rich in Egypt are ok?
    Young people in the streets singing song’s and carrying sign, mostly say hurray for our side…..…

  10. Ice Gal says:

    That video looks like the amerika the republicans are planning. Won�t be any prettier here.
    Here is hoping the rich in Egypt are ok?
    Young people in the streets singing song�s and carrying sign, mostly say hurray for our side�..�

    http://icegals.blogspot.com/

  11. AKMagpie says:

    Friends, please try to watch Al Jezeera online, the live stream. They have been committing real journalism throughout this event in Egypt. Even NPR has said that this is Al Jezeera’s moment to shine journalistically. Much of what we are reading, watching, or hearing is only partially correct or misinterpreted. I have been watching for the past two days almost non-stop. Many of the questions you consider have been at least partially answered on that network. Much different even than MSNBC, even though much of the video they are showing is from Al Jezeera. Subject to creative commons, AJ has given permission for all networks to use their material. Egypt is 11 hours ahead of Anchorage time. GMT + 2 hrs. The anchors in Egypt should be getting ready to do more coverage tonight (their day). The best US journalist I have seen is Richard Engel, on both US network and AJ.

    http://english.aljazeera.net/

    Click on Live Streaming. It frequently reloads, so you have to re-click, but they are dealing with less than ideal conditions.

  12. WakeUpAmerica says:

    This is what life would be like in America under a Palin regime.

  13. Millie says:

    I just finished watching President Clinton speak before the Economic Convention (Switzerland) and answer their questions. Thank God, we have President Obama and President Clinton speak for us on a national level. Can you imagine John McCain and Sarah Palin doing the same? It frightens the hell out of me!

    We have SO many ignorant people in the United States of America and is scares me to death. I cannot fathom that Palin even has 30% of the U.S. that would support her. But, look at our Congress! We have the likes of Boehner leading the House…..Nancy, I cannot even begin to imagine what you are going through in having to counter ever step the guy takes.

    We look like idiots outside of the US. F*ck Palin!

  14. Paddlefoot says:

    I’ll have to plead ignorance here. What was the straw that broke the camel’s back in Egypt?

    • Sarafina says:

      Tunisia’s uprising? They seem connected.

      It’s just GWB’s vision of democracy spreading from the invasion of Iraq throughout the Middle East.

  15. auni says:

    Thank you suchanut for the video.

  16. Hope says:

    Good coverage on CNN? I have typed #Egypt to watch the twitter feed.
    The people of Egypt are in my heart. I wish for their peace.

  17. AKjah says:

    Must say the Egyptians are showing great great resolve.
    We now know what our country has done to bring these noble people to the point they find themselves today.
    What (i ask) are we.

    corrupt government-check
    election fraud-check
    loss of privacy-check
    manipulation of media-check
    manipulation of law by class-check

    Big couches and video games-check.

  18. fawnskin mudpuppy says:

    me

  19. AKPetMom says:

    Who even knew that Egyptians were unhappy with their Government?

  20. GA Peach says:

    Interesting times we live in.

    We’re dancing on the head of a pin here. The Egyptian people will not accept anything other than Mubarak leaving.

    The US has supported Mubarak because of his position on Israel. We’ve been giving an average of 2 billion (yes, that’s a b) to Egypt since 1979. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/29/us-egypt-usa-aid-idUSTRE70S0IN20110129

    And yeah, I know that foreign aid is a small part of our budget, but it seems to me that talking democracy out of one side of our mouth and supporting a dictatorship like Mubarak’s out of the other, puts us squarely residing in the land of Hypocrisy. Al Jazeera is our GPS on this issue, since our mainstream media has been ‘out to lunch’ until recently.

    • GA Peach says:

      And yes, I am amazed at the Egyptian people’s grace and resolve under pressure. This has been a long time coming. I pray for them and pray that Mubarak resigns.

    • jojobo1 says:

      so right yet some are blaming this administration when the man has been in power for over 30 years and how many administrations have let this slip by.WE helped out the Shaw of Iran and look what we have now.The same with Iraq,we helped put Saddam in power and look what happened.The same can be said for countries in central America and South America also

    • Laurie says:

      I heard someone on NPT talking about who we (the United States) should support in situations like these. They mentioned the transformation of Bush who originally made speeches saying we would support democracy for the people over non-democratic governments. He changed his tune when they had elections in Palestine and the Hamas terrorist organization won majorities. There is always a chance that someone could sweep in to fill the void and be worse than the one who got thrown out. Kind of like the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t.

      I hope the people there can get something clearly better than what they have had.

      • Dubya warned Syria and Hezbollah not to mess with the fledgling Democracy in Lebanon because the Lebanese were our allies Yeah,right. Dubya then stood there quietly as Israel bombed nearly every inch of Lebanon,docks,schools ,hospitals and civilians. Not a word was uttered by the Bush regime while hundreds if not more innocent Arabs were murdered. I did not and do not trust a Rethuglican Pol as far as I could toss a bobcat. Bush and Co. made a regal mess of the Middle East and the worst is yet to come. I seriously doubt that a Conservative has enough of a conscience to worry about the less fortunate anywhere.

  21. Suchanut says:

    MES – thank you for your words. I’m on it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hBV0ApIh_4

    This video is very moving. The speaker is an Egyptian protester at the Egyptian embassy in London. What he says speaks volumes.

    • jojobo1 says:

      Suchanut Thank you for the video link.It explains things so much better than what the news stories tell..From this I think we really don’t know what is happening over in Egypt all the time.We only hear about things when something like this happens. I really could not believe that the net was shut down along with cell phones.Cell phones I know how they can be shut down.The net I know nothing about except for how to look up things read the news,banking ,paying bills and e-mail. Though I do know China and other countries stop internet user from seeing some things,This gave me a better understanding of the situation.

  22. nswfm says:

    You know, people thought the P&K posts on the PG blog were extreme with regard to the economics and crises in Europe, etc., but the way our Fed keeps the button on “print” for the USD, they now look a little prescient. Or observant. It’s not just the unstable people who have been elected that we have to be worried about. I’m worried about a guy from JPMorgan as the new Chief of Staff and Immelt on the economic panel here to create jobs when JPMorgan Chase is part of the Fraudclosure epidemic and GE pays so little in taxes by offshoring jobs and doing tax arbitrage. We need more tax breaks for the rich and powerful to create jobs–yeah right.

    • Krubozumo Nyankoye says:

      nswfm – a counter argument just for purposes of discussion.

      Could it not also be seen as a strategy to “turn” insiders who are both experienced with and privvy to the *thinking* of the financial potentates such that their hegemony over the world economy can be carefully demolished without inflicting even more enormous pain on those 99% or 96% or 90% of people who are the victims of systemic financial crime?

      Contradicting myself for no other reason that the alternative is a bit too grim at the moment, one can at least hope so.

      • nswfm says:

        I hope you are right. I thought WWIII started when I learned the Pentagon had been hit. You don’t run into that building by accident, no matter who did it. And at this point, I think the war profiteers are the only ones who benefit.

        • nswfm says:

          Also, when Kelo vs New London went in favor of Pfizer for property rights and Citizens United passed for elections, I thought the “small people” of the US were told by the Supreme Court that we piddly humans were just grist for the Davos attendees and the CEOs who live in Greenwich, CT.

          • Krubozumo Nyankoye says:

            nswfm –

            Apologies in advance for not being able to give even a hint of a link to this but I came across a breakdown of who owns what in terms of the global stock markets, I think it was published in Science. It turns out, if I read the summary correctly that about ten major banks essentially own 2/3 of all the stocks in all the companies in the world.

            I think that gives the lie to the commonly bandied concept of publicly owned companies.

  23. MES says:

    In awe of the sacrifices that millions of ordinary Egyptians are making for their freedom. Would that I had a tenth of the courage they are showing. I lived in Egypt for two years and visit frequently, and the citizens were always terrified of the brutal government. In the last five days, they’ve confronted their fear together and risen above it to demand what our own government always says are God-given, inalienable rights but still seems willing to compromise on in favor of security. What we’re seeing is a brave and selfless confrontation with evil, and as painful as it is to watch, there are moments of beautiful humanity as well. Please, express your support for their struggle in any way you can, whether it’s calling your representatives to ask for an immediate end to support of the Mubarak dictatorship or taking a few minutes to hold the Egyptian people in your heart or even just one of the people you see in the video, with a sincere hope for the dawning of a better, more certain era tomorrow. Literally tomorrow. It can’t wait until Monday.

    • ks sunflower says:

      Beautifully expressed, MES. I have taken your advice and contacted my elected officials asking that they support the Egyptian people in constructive ways (I do not want my war-crazed GOP officials thinking I am calling for troops to be sent because some in the GOP have already been mumbling about that), and am praying for a peaceful, positive resolution in favor of the average Egyptian.

      I hope we never have to face their reality in this country, but you never know considering some of the unstable people who have just been elected and who are running for office in the near future. May we all keep peace in our hearts and work in constructive ways to change the system whenever we disagree with it.

      May peace be with and within us all.

    • bubbles says:

      i can do that! i can and i will do just that.
      as sleep overcame me last night i wished for every good thing for the people of the world. i wished i could make a blizzard of snow cover all of Africa. to cool every angry heart and to bring life giving water to a continent parched and neglected.
      i also wished that for once the United States would mind our own damned business and take care of our own suffering people.
      i don’t know how the people of Tunis and Egypt will fashion a government to support their aims but i hope they have a plan in place. who will lead them? it would be a good thing to know before one takes to the street. before one throws the baby, the bathwater and the tub out the door.

  24. Suchanut says:

    “Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit.”

    Abbie Hoffman

    • ks sunflower says:

      I like the choice of “process.” Violent revolution is never necessary if people of good will work together to create change as a process, being active in the political process at local, state and federal levels. Ensuring that their own lives are as good as they can be. I think we all lived our lives in a spirit of good will, tolerance and trust, we need never look to violence to achieve justice, fairness or freedom.

      • Sarafina says:

        “Violent revolution is never necessary………and federal levels.” According to you, then, all this violence in Egypt is unnecessary? People are dying for no reason? Or if they are, it’s because they forgot to vote?

        Really, have you ever not lived in a safe white suburban bubble?

        It can seem ludicrous to us, but some people risk their lives to vote. People die EVERY DAY trying to get into the U.S.

        “I think we all lived out lives…….we need never look to violence to achieve justice, fairness or freedom.”

        Maybe I’m missing something, but your post reads like a fantasy totally unconnected to the reality in Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen and elsewhere.

        And btw, unless you are a vegan, that cow/sheep/fish/chicken didn’t volunteer to die for your dinner. Food animals are killed violently in slaughterhouses..

  25. Andrea says:

    hopefully, peaceful revolution will never be impossible

    • Krubozumo Nyankoye says:

      Hopefully. But are there not some factions in our society who today ridicule hope?

      Hoffman was a revolutionary with a fairly developed mind focused on a large and patently obvious issue. “Steal This Book” should be required reading, just as should “Civil Disobediance”.

      KS – once again I agree with you whole heartedly, but I regret very much to say that that hopefulness you express is not well grounded in reality. Has anyone here every lived for any amount of time under a military dictatorship? Or in a country at war with itself? I don’t mean a tepid “class war” but the real thing, death, mayhem, disease, starvation, destitution and despair. It can happen anywhere.

      I regret to admit that I really don’t know exactly what this thread is about because I can’t view the videos at all so I am ignorant of their content, but I infer they have to do with the popular uprisings in N. Africa. From what little I have been able to read, at least part of the popular dissatisfaction in Egypt for example is due to unemployment and income disparities, but the most recent CIA world fact book on income disparity actually ranks Egypt higher than the US. In fact the income disparity in Russia is less than in the US. One country with very high income disparity is S. Africa. The income disparity here in Brasil is a bit worse than in the US.

      It strikes me as odd that so many people, people who have learnt how to tie their shoes, who can on average balance a checkbook 2 out of 3 times, people who if they thought about it for 30 seconds or so would realize that their entire life, everything they did, do, and hope to do is dependent upon the cooperation and participation of other people, mostly just like themselves, cannot comprehend that the very definition of living in a society, with shared dependency is after all socialism.

      • Krubozumo Nyankoye says:

        To clarify my above comments regarding relative income disparities, I made a very confusing statement. On a scale of 0.0 to 1.0 the lower the number the less the income disparity between
        the top subset and the lowest subset (either quintiles or deciles etc.) the US garners a ratio of about 0.45 and both Egypt and Russia have lower ratios. If memory serves me Egypt is in the range 0.35 – 0.40 and Russia between 0.40 – 0.45.

      • benlomond2 says:

        .. I was stationed in the Phillipines under Marcos for 6 months, .. and while I was a US Sailor, I did live in town for a while and saw and heard a few things – during the “electons”, all service personal were restricted to base 2 weeks prior to event. .. two of the guys in the squadron were in a small bar when several gunmen entered, lined everyone up against the wall,.. seeing the sailors ( we kinda didn’t blend in with the locals) ,, they were moved to the other side of the bar , and then the gunmen opened up. Martial Law by a dictator is a “wonderful” thing; the owner of the bar evidently supported the political opposition…
        I don’t know if Egypt is on the same level as this, I would like to think not.. but I suspect it’s somewhere in that realm…

        • Krubozumo Nyankoye says:

          benlomond2 – Thanks for pointing out that there are gradations to experiences that have certain overlaps which may not be obvious to some who have gone through the wringer so to speak. I can get a bit tightly wound thinking back over some of my experiences.

  26. Marnie says:

    On the grand scale I do agree with the statement.

    But when you have groups like the Nazi and the Tea Baggers, that statement just really doesn’t cover it because it does not consider what effect propaganda lies can do to brainwash to instill hatred and to incite violence.

    • Just wondering, can we avoid comparing Teabaggers to Nazis, in the spirit of Sanity and all that?

      • CanadianGuy25 says:

        Agreed, no Godwin’s Law comparisons, please.

      • ks sunflower says:

        I think we would avoid it if we could, but sanity requires that we recognize that some of the same policies were and are held by major players in both. Unfortunately, not all Tea Party/GOP right-wingers are aware of the similarities. They need to be called out on this whenever it is appropriate. The comparisons, when valid, should shock and shame them into sanity.

        I do, however, understand the argument that the comparison, if done lightly or in ignorance or just to dramatize a point, could desensitize us to the horrors of what the original Nazis did in WWII.

        However, the truth is that the same or similar philosophies still live on today and are ingrained in some so deeply that they cannot or will not recognize the seeds of horror that they are planting.

        If we do not make those comparisons when they are valid, then we are responsible for their promulgation. If we do not accurately point out the parallels when they exist we are shrinking our duty to ensure that the atrocities of the past do not get repeated.

        I know no one wants to relive the hell that the Nazis perpetrated on their victims, but how do we avoid repetition of that hell unless we point out the danger, the signposts that their hateful policies are budding again in the minds of the misguided, ignorant or bigoted?

        Yes, we should not throw around a label such as Nazi carelessly, but neither should we be hesitant to apply it when applicable. I am not troubled when I see it brought up validly because I believe that the person voicing that opinion is truly trying to prevent history repeating itself.

        • Millie says:

          I so agree with you! I fear for America and strongly feel that we need to take a stand whenever we are not in agreement with the rhetoric that is being spewed daily. Just look at some of the garbage that is coming out of the mouths of members of our Congress. Some of the statements have to be countered – with proof as to their being incorrect.

      • Krubozumo Nyankoye says:

        I have to side with KS sunflower on this point. When a biologist or dumb ol’ geologist is roundly attacked as a Nazi for pointing out the evidentiary case supporting the theory of evolution or plate tectonics that is an appropriate invocation of Godwin’s law. When the very same tactics, devises, methods and means developed and refined by the Nazi regime are widely adopted by political operatives, it is not inappropriate to call them Nazi tactics etc.

        Has anyone here ever heard the term Femi-nazi? Do you recall where it originated? When it originated? I do.

        While it is true that the *big lie* was an idea largely co-developed by Hitler and Goebbels that is only one part of the overal strategy of propaganda. The other part is what the lie is about. And that is to **accuse your opponent** of the very thing that you are actually doing. That is why shouting you lie at the president of the United States during a formal address before the combined houses of congress is a Nazi propaganda tactic. Obama was not lying, his attacker was.

        There is much more to this than is capable of explanation in a blog comment, but it would behoove everyone here to make an effort to be more aware of what the news media are actually doing versus what they are being accused of doing. For example, Palin has relentlessly attacked the media for attacking her. Have they? Almost not at all. Has the media ever accused her of palling around with cessonists, dominionists? When a Joe Mcginnis(sp) comes to Alaska to do research for a book on Palin she and her minions accuse him of pedophilia before he can unpack his bags.

        I will add one more refinement to this statement and let it go at that. I have elsewhere, not often but on some occasions heard the term “projection” applied to this behavior. It is inappropriate because those who project their world view onto others do not do so deliberately. Are people who employ Naziesque propaganda tactics Nazies? Probably not though they may share many common traits.

        As I believe it was Mark Twain said, “History does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.”

        • windpond says:

          Wow! ‘And that is to **accuse your opponent** of the very thing that you are actually doing.’

          Precisely. Very simple and very effective. And relentless. I read comments here often and comment rarely, but this one jumped out at me to bite like a scopion. Spot on. The warning here is we need to make an effort to be more aware of what Palin is doing, what the media isn’t doing, and what she is accusing them of doing (which they’re not).

          Thank you Krubozumo Nyankoye for that.

          • Krubozumo Nyankoye says:

            Windpond – it is deeply gratifying to read your response. To my mind is very troubling that the so-called fourth estate, the press, has given not only Palin but virtually all the other right wing demagogues a complete pass. They lie with virtual impunity and the majority of the media simply repeat their lies without so much as a hand wave towards whether or not what was said was credible at all.

            While I agree we all need to be more alert, we also need to be more assertive. That is to say, we need to communicate our displeasure directly to those whole hold the great responsibility for reporting news, not the editors and producers but the reporters and commentators themselves. We all know that anything owned by Murdoch and his cohorts is beyond redemption, they have an agenda and there is no point wasting bandwidth or bits explaining it to them. The managerial levels of other news organs are also probably beyond reach, their sole concern is profit and they chase the Faux news model because it is clearly more profitable to just make stuff up than hire and station reporters around the globe to find things out. So the weakest point in the wall of disinformation is the people who actually report it. When you see here or read someone making some pernicious assertion such as that Rep. Giffords invited mayhem on herself by not having “security” (that is to say a gang of thugs a’ la Joe Miller) then take them personally to task for it as vociferously and politely as you can. They are individual people and have individual aspirations, pointing out to them that lying by proxy does not enyhance their journalistic credentials will have an influence.

          • Krubozumo Nyankoye says:

            Sheesh, typos aplenty. who not whole and hear not here.

        • jojobo1 says:

          Krubozumo Nyankoye Very good post.Are we to let some who use the Nazi name for everything they disagree with get away with it and the rest of the US should just shut up and sit down. I don’t think so. What I don’t quite understand about the Violence in Egypt is the why of it.They say it is because of unemployment and the people have no money to feed their families.Will violence like this really help them become employed or feed their families,If it is only about freedom again who’s Idea of freedom.Wouldn’t these same people put those they disagree with on trial or even just kill them. I would like to know who is really behid this

          • Krubozumo Nyankoye says:

            Jojobo1 – Egypt. I can’t say I have any personal experience there so I am only speculating. However, based on other experience the causes of such extensive popular uprising are never singular nor simple. All other issues aside I think the tap root of this uprising is the simple fact that Mubarak like so many others who rise to positions of great power, has ruthlessly clung to that power for 3 decades. There is quite a lot more. Martial law for example is rather harsh. I don’t know and I don’t profess to know but I can say with some self assurance that whatever the motive, actively resisting and defying an authoritarian government takes substantial courage of conviction.

        • Sarafina says:

          I also agree with ks sunflower. I think the word Nazi was used so frequently and incorrectly by the Republicans people have become desensitized. It’s like a former co-worker telling me having his laptop had been stolen was like being raped.

          Words mean less when there has been a conscious effort to lessen their shock value through repetition.

          • barbara says:

            how true. i am still offended by the poet i heard reading recently who said something about the squirrel she had “murdered” the night before, when she unavoidably had run the creature over. she then went on to quote a statistic in which she stated that by the end of their career, train engineers had on average “murdered” three people, when the statistic certainly refers to accidents and suicides by train. my daughter was murdered, and the meaning of the word is devalued when used as she used it. and this was a woman whose stock in trade is words.
            by the same token i am really disturbed that people like palin, beck, limbaugh, oreilly etc have these stages and microphones and platforms to spread lies and hate and division endlessly without ever reflecting on the effect of their words. or being held to account for their words and the power their words have on less able minded and thinking people.
            why sow hate? what is the goal? will they ever be satisfied, or will they always need enemies to jeer at? is there a positive end in their world view? i don’t think so. particularly those like palin who apparently believes that the second coming of jesus is imminent and will be accompanied by an apocalyse as supposedly prophesied in revelations.
            i don’t think these people are contemplating or would be supportive of final solutions (though haven’t people like ann coulter suggested death to all muslims?). they do however seem very comfortable with an “us” vs “them” mentality to the extent that for most of them, even when President Obama does something that is otherwise almost universally praiseworthy, they twist themselves up like pretzels to find something to carp about. the “wtf” SOTU?? beck apparently compared Obama’s citing of the building blocks of the USA’s future success to the seven pillars of Islam, and why? to make his low-information, high-volume hating listeners, who have also apparently long since bought into the muslim = hateful false equation, believe that Obama either is muslim himself, or pandering to jihadists!
            it is outrageous and that must be countered.

        • Laurie says:

          The word Nazi has been tossed about so much since Obama has been elected, it is losing the power it once had. Everyone has been called one at this point.

          I agree that these republicans who say outrageous things are essentially accusing democrats of doing what they themselves are doing. It is frustrating to watch because they do it so very well.

          I tried to follow the health care debate closely. I remember wanting to understand exactly what it was that Joe Wilson was calling a lie. From what I remember, the republicans had passed a bill under Bush where they created an added layer of screening paperwork to Medicaid enrollment to catch or discourage people who are not in this country legally from getting on the Medicaid rolls. Only US citizens are eligible and they wanted to put up a bigger roadblog for non-citizens.

          The republicans and Joe Wilson wanted this same extra layer of bureaucracy added to the health care reform bill. The democrats refused to add it. Therefore when Obama said reform will not cover people in this country illegally, Joe Wilson decided to yell “it’s a lie”.

          The reason the democrats would not add this extra roadblock for non-citizens is that it costs something like $3.00 for every 3 cents it saves. George Stephanopolis did get Wilson to admit this on his show sometime after the outburst.

          All this to say, I think there is always a tiny, distorted grain of truth in what the republicans are spewing. You can bet that Joe tells his constituents that Obama will not do what is necessary to keep illegals off of Obama care because he is a socialist. He will not tell them that the democrats and the president are not doing what the republicans want because it is not cost efficient.

          • beth says:

            Not to mention rather stupid. If a person has a communicable disease, even if they are here illegally, it is wise to get them treated *before* they ‘communicate’ that disease to the larger population. Sheesh… beth.

          • Krubozumo Nyankoye says:

            Laurie,

            You make a plausible argument if it is not inspected closely. Unfortunately, beginning with the fallacy of equivalence is not a good sign. The evidence is overwhelming that the right wing and their propaganda organ News Corp. invokes allusions to Nazi memes much more often than anyone else.

            I will skip your second paragraph even though it too waffles a bit.

            But your third is egregiously dissembling. Your first two sentences give problems to your claims. The health care debate too place for the most part *after* Obama spoke to congress. And the right honorable congressman Wilson did not shout *it’s a lie*, nor could you have found reason to puzzle over what specific mendacity he might have been referring to because what he actually said was *you* lie.

            I won’t go further because I want to allow that you are speaking here from a position of misinformation. That is to say not deliberately misrepresenting things. But I will address your last paragraph directly. No, there is not a tiny, distorted grain of truth in what republicans are saying. A lie is a lie. To taint the truth even in part is to taint all that is also true, and that is often the purpose. You have used these tactics in this post. You changed your reference to Medicaide to Obama care. Why did you do that?

        • bubbles says:

          elegant and precise. lovely.

          • bubbles says:

            here is a video sent to me from a young friend of mine. he is a professor of Egyptian studies and visits the country very often. thank you Amar.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThvBJMzmSZI

          • Krubozumo Nyankoye says:

            Bubbles, I comment below this statement (thank you) because the system does not allow me to comment below your video post. Mercy please! Some of us are crippled in the video department. Yes we are hopelessly out of date and uncool, but chained to our archaic machines by the accumulation of time and data. So please, in future, briefly say what the video you refer to is about. Otherwise they are like an invitation with no location.

            I have to ask, your handle is a bit provacative. One thinks of many things when processing the word Bubbles. On my own part I immediately think of the equations of minimal surfaces.